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It can be tempting to think of the Bible as a list of rules and old stories, far disconnected from our everyday lives. But when we read the psalms, we find the entire spectrum of human emotion: grief, rejoicing, despair, melancholy, anxiety, hope, and everything in between. In this book of songs, God has given us permission and words for our deepest feelings.
Author and speaker Mary DeMuth recently filmed a daily devotional with our team, exploring the psalms in all of their beauty and emotional range. We caught up with Mary to hear her heart behind this devotional and hope for everyone who goes through it.
Mary: It was super peaceful. I really enjoyed getting to know all of the people on the team and learning about their roles. One of the things I just love is people! So having a bunch of people there was super helpful. What I loved is that they were very professional and very intentional about getting the right shots. And there was no stress, like, “Oh you made a mistake.” I was definitely more hard on myself while they were giving me grace. It was great—I had a really good time!
RightNow Media: What is one thing you learned while preparing for this series?
Mary: One of the topics I talk about in the series is the importance of lamenting. Every time I have taught lament psalms to a group of people, I have seen God do amazing work in their lives. So, relearning and reacquainting myself with the rhythm of lament was really helpful for me in my own lament journey. It allowed me to move beyond some grief I was holding onto.
RightNow Media: What is one thing you want viewers to walk away with after watching this series?
Mary: I guess I just want them to know that they are normal. To feel pain, grief, despair, or rejoicing is totally normal. The psalms exist to give words to whatever they are going through.
Click here to check out the Prayer and the Psalms devotional with Mary DeMuth on RightNow Media today.
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As the senior producer, Courtney Davis spent weeks scouting locations, double-checking equipment, planning car rentals and logistics, and scheduling her team to make sure everything went smoothly. “We brought extra people to make sure we could get everything shot. We had people at multiple locations ready to go so Bob could get the shot and move on. We normally have more time—a couple of days at least—so we were ready for the shoot to be stressful.”
When our video team spoke about their time with Bob, they didn’t talk about the logistics of a one-day shoot, the California traffic, or catching connecting flights. Instead, they told stories about Bob’s cars (every car in Love In Chaos is one of Bob’s) and how four sailors, all of whom were also named Bob, taught Bob Goff to raise the sails on a pirate ship. Then, how the ship’s owner had to stop Goff from climbing the ship’s mast.
A difficult day became fun. But Bob was more than an energetic person; he wanted to get to know the people he was working with.
“Bob was so kind, so engaged—the Bob you meet in his books is who he really is,” Courtney said.
“He wanted to take pictures with us! We’re usually the ones asking to take pictures at the end of a shoot.”
We are so used to being wary of strangers or assuming the worst of people online that encountering someone like Bob—someone who genuinely cares for the people around him—is refreshing, life-giving, and makes us wonder, “What’s different about you?” There is something irresistible about a person who loves Jesus in today’s world.
What if we, like Bob, made a point to let everyone around us know that we care about them, even those we disagree with? What if we swapped the division of our culture for the love of Jesus? That’s what Love In Chaos is all about.
What our production team captured in San Diego became a series that will exhort and encourage Christians to get out of their comfort zones for the sake of the gospel. “We’re so used to getting on social media and just seeing a lot of arguing,” Courtney said.
“But Bob encourages us in this series to actively care for the people around us. Jesus calls us to love people who are hurting, and I hope this series helps us do that more.”
When asked about how long the shoot day was, Courtney laughed. “We actually wrapped an hour early, which never happens.”
In Matthew 5, Jesus begins his most famous sermon with a list of characteristics, commonly known as the Beatitudes, that offer us a glimpse at what it looks like to live “the blessed life.” But they’re not exactly what we might expect.
We sent a film crew with author and pastor Matt Chandler to Big Bend National Park to film The Beatitudes, an eight-session series examining Matthew 5:1–12. In this series, Matt teaches us what a blessed life really looks like. It may not look the way we imagine, but it’s better than we could ever hope.
While filming, our team asked Matt a few questions about his preparation for and teaching of this impactful series.
Matt: Going into the series, I was familiar with the Beatitudes. I mean, I’ve been a Christian for thirty years. I don’t know that I’ve ever explicitly taught through them but certainly understood them to be Jesus unpacking what the kingdom of God would look like. So, the thing that was in plain sight that really ministered to me as I prepared was that the Beatitudes aren’t a list of things that I need to work on, but rather the kind of person that Jesus is turning me into. And I think that was the big thing that stood out, that Jesus doesn’t show up looking for this kind of person, like “let me find the man of peace” or “let me find the meek.” But, rather, he’s saying, “my people that I’m going to work in, that the Holy Spirit’s going to—this is the kind of person they’re going to become.” So, it’s not eight different people, right, but eight characteristics of the same person. So, it honestly gave me a lot of confidence that God is working these things in me and that I will continue as long as I’m here.
Matt: If I think about people in living rooms or in church rooms and buildings, and watching this, the thing that I most want them to walk away with is a confidence that God is at work in their lives. I don’t want them to listen to a single one of these episodes and feel crushed by it or feel that it’s impossible. That by episode after episode after episode that they would grow in their deep and earnest belief that God is at work in the mess of their lives. That God’s patience is there, that his shaping power is there, and that he has not forgotten them, but is actively turning them into this kind of person.
Matt: So, the thing that always stands out when I get to shoot these things is it’s always done in just stunningly beautiful places. So, there is the team, of course, that you laugh with, and you have a good time with. But you’re getting to . . . I said to somebody, I think it was early this morning, “Can you believe we get to do this?” We’re up early, everything’s new, the sun’s coming up, everything’s beautiful, and then we get to talk about the creator God of the universe. We get to point toward the gospel. We get to marvel at his goodness and grace. I think that’s the thing, and really, through all my shoots with RightNow, that’s been the thing that always has stood out as I head home or as we wrap up, that in these really beautiful places, these really privileged spaces, that we get to just talk about and point towards the king of the universe.
Our production team holds themselves to a high standard of excellence. They work hard to find the best locations, the best teachers, and to film exciting and insightful content for your church and small groups. But every shoot has its own unique challenges and, sometimes, things don’t go exactly to plan.
While filming our upcoming series The Acts of the Apostles, our team and pastor Louie Giglio had to deal with unexpected weather changes and rogue tow trucks during a marathon two days of shooting. We caught up with Louie Giglio to learn about his experience filming this study, what God taught him while preparing his teaching, and his prayer for everyone who goes through this study of Acts.
Louie: It was your typical “I am doing something that is going to make a difference in the kingdom” experience. We recorded in an old factory in Atlanta—metal roof, open spaces, and open-air in many ways. The temperature inside was the same as the temperature outside and the beautiful weather we had the week before had turned into forty-nine degrees and pouring down rain. So, for two days, the amazing RightNow Media team shot this thing under not-the-best conditions.
We got one shot going, it was happening, we were rolling, and a guy comes driving up through the shot! His headlights were shining behind me right into the camera. A tow truck—because some people who had been at the building a few days before left a rental car there—came driving through the shot. I was talking about how the gospel is going to go to the ends of the world and he stops in the shot and starts to back up! BEEP BEEP BEEP. It was like, “Cut. Let’s start over. Hey, can you get your car and go, please?”
But that’s what it’s like when you are shooting one of these Bible studies. When you’re watching it, it’s so put together; the team does an amazing job! But it is a hustle to shoot because the enemy doesn’t want this message to get out. And we’re shooting this in the wild, so you never know what the next distraction will be.
It was like that for two straight days, but props to the RightNow Media team! They’re the best, they did a fantastic job. We had a bond like a family after going through a book like Acts. It was a family event. God was in it. I felt like I had run a marathon after the second day, but it was worth it!
Louie: I love the story of Acts because it’s our story. We are still living in the story of Acts. One of the things that really stuck out to me was as Paul was on his way to Rome—there was a shipwreck, a storm, they were wrecked on the island of Malta—the Bible says everyone was accounted for. Luke, who was writing this, says there were 276 people and they were all accounted for. God is writing a big global story, but he also knows every single one of us. We are all accounted for, and we all have a role in taking the name of Jesus to the ends of the earth.
Louie: You know, the place where we filmed this series was a working factory about a hundred years ago. On either side of the factory was a huge building with multiple train tracks going into it. Then there was another huge building on another side with lots of tracks leading into it. A small channel with a single set of tracks connected all the buildings. I don’t know what they made at this factory, but a train came into one building, a cart took something from that train across to the factory. Then, whatever they made, was taken from the factory to a departing train and sent away. Everything was connected.
As we shot, I thought, “That’s Acts. We are standing in Acts!” God brings the gospel to us in multiple tracks and stories, the gospel changes us, then he takes us somewhere else in the world to people who need to hear that story.
The takeaway from that story is that you are in Acts. It is not just about Peter, Stephen, Paul, Lydia, or all the churches that were planted. The Acts of the Apostles are still in motion taking the story of Jesus to all people. The gospel spread from Jerusalem to Judea, Samaria, and now to the ends of the earth. We are in Acts.
It’s no overstatement to say that we are more distracted now than we’ve ever been. The “chaos machine” in our pockets constantly diverts our attention away from what matters, gluing our eyes to the things that don’t. And with our attention goes our focus.
Addressing this very topic, New York Times bestselling author and speaker Jon Acuff recently filmed a new series with our team entitled Focus: In a World of Bottomless Distractions and Endless Opportunities. We caught up with Jon to hear what he learned while preparing this series and his hope for those who go through it.
Jon: One thing I learned is how distracted we all are. I like to say that our distraction technology has outpaced our ability to focus. Think about how fast distraction has scaled. I mean, twenty years ago the only distraction I had on my phone was a game called snake. I don’t know if you’re my age, but it just was a line that went “doot, doot, doot, doot, doot.” Now, you have every movie ever made, every book ever written, and every podcast ever recorded in your pocket. You have a chaos machine in your pocket. So, it was really interesting to learn—that’s part of why it’s challenging. You shouldn’t feel bad that it’s hard to focus; the odds are stacked against you because of our technology. But there are some really simple things you can do, and that’s what was so fun about filming this series.
Jon: I want viewers to walk away with the idea that you can learn how to focus. It’s not a personality trait. It’s not something that some people are good at and others are bad. When you talk to people about, “Is it easy for you to focus?” or “Do you ever get distracted?” sometimes they make identity statements. They say, “I’m a really distracted person. I can never focus,” as if they can’t learn. But the one thing I want you to walk away with is you can learn, and there’s some very practical things you can do that are actually really fun. And you get to see pretty quick progress. So I want you to walk away with the idea that you can do it and that there’s things you can do.
Jon: My most memorable moment of any series—we’ve done because we’ve done three together (so, I know I’m talking about Focus, but we’ve done Soundtracks and Finish)—my most memorable moment was where I got to the shoot and there was a cliff. They had set up the shoot on the edge of a cliff that was three-hundred feet high, overlooking a river, and there was a rock that was, in my opinion, very close to the edge of the cliff. And they said, “Hey, we just want you to stand on this rock, it’ll be an amazing shot.” And I said, “What’s your second idea?” Because I talk with my hands, I move around a lot, I’m very animated. So, I said, “There’s no way I’m getting on that rock.” So, if you watch that video, I’m perched on the rock. I’m sitting on the rock, that was our compromise, but I’m kind of looking over my shoulder. That was the most memorable. The second was, we filmed in Nissan Titan Stadium in Nashville, Tennessee, where I live. And it was an amazing shot, and they had a drone, and it was just gorgeous. So, I love partnering with RightNow because they always do such beautifully well-thought-out work.
The book of Hebrews can be intimidating. It is long, theologically dense, and full of cultural references that feel distant from our everyday lives. So, sadly, many of us keep our distance from this rich and encouraging book. But not Dr. Derwin Gray.
Derwin spent time with our production team in North Carolina filming our new series, The Book of Hebrews, an eight-part series walking through the thirteen chapters of Hebrews. We caught up with Derwin Gray after he preached at our recent Men's Conference to hear about his experience making this series and his hope for everyone who watches it.
Derwin: Filming with the RightNow Media crew was awesome! Not only are they professional, they are genuinely good people who love Jesus. We worked hard, but we had a lot of fun. They also helped me find some new fishing spots to catch bass. I enjoyed being around them—I feel like I made friends [working on this study]. It’s always a good thing when you can make friends and talk about Jesus while making content that helps other people make friends and talk about Jesus as well.
Derwin: Hebrews is a pensive, beautiful book that calls us to the ancient way of following Jesus in the midst of circumstances that are not going your way. There was a great deal of persecution and a great deal of suffering [in the ancient church] and the Holy Spirit led the author of Hebrews to communicate, “Trust his grace.” Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the radiance of his glory. While preparing for this study, my picture of Jesus got bigger.
Derwin: I want people to walk away from this study saying, “I had no idea Jesus was so lifegiving, powerful, near, and present.” I want people to understand that we can approach his throne of grace and mercy in our time of need. Jesus’s grace is infinite—it never runs out.
We live in a time where isolation feels more comfortable than living in community. We are used to living alone, running errands alone, and not sharing our hopes or fears with many people. But God never intended us to be secluded from one another.
Author and speaker Jennie Allen dug deep into God’s vision for community while writing her book Find Your People, which she recently developed into a series with the team at RightNow Media. We caught up with Jennie after filming to hear her hope for the series and how living in community has changed her life.
Jennie: The RightNow Media team—they are my people! So many of them are my good friends. We’ve worked together for many, many years. I feel like I can call Phil (VP of Production) with any idea and he’s like, “Let’s go, J!”
Phil has put together such an amazing team of people. Mark (Video Producer) has spent so many hours on my stuff; Courtney (Senior Producer) is awesome—I just feel like everybody has been so gracious and kind to let me build with them.
RightNow Media is a family and I feel like I’m the adopted member of that family (laughs). I’m really grateful that they create with me. I hope that the series we make causes you to love God more—they hope that too. It’s really special and fun that we get to be creative in a way that helps people get to know God better.
Jennie: Wow—it has been a two-year journey for me, which is how working on a book or Bible study goes. But this one has changed every single thing about me—the way I live, the way I think about friendship, the way I eat, the way I run errands. Everything about me is about pulling people in and not doing anything alone.
Even this project, I feel, was a big group project. Being on set with the big locations felt like being with family. Some bad things happened to me that week, and we were all crying together in a bowling alley, praying for my family. That is the way we were meant to live. We aren’t meant to cry alone. We’re meant to cry in each other’s arms and in each other’s presence.
My hope for this series is that it will cause you to rethink hiding anything, that you will live fully known, seen, and connected to others.
Jennie: I hope people walk away from this series with friends. I think we are doing life in a more isolated way than we ever have before. The scary part of that, as a generation, is we were already doing life more isolated than any generation before us. We already had a problem, then COVID-19 and the last couple of years exacerbated the problem.
I hope that viewers don’t feel any pressure when they watched the series. I hope that when you are working through the series a desire rises up within you—a vision and a dream for the way God meant for us to live. This series is all about building a foundation in your life for community that is different from the way we live right now in America.
This study has changed my life. I can’t imagine living any differently. I have a village; I have my people. It’s messy and imperfect, but it is a better, more rich and full way to live.
In the book of Romans, the apostle Paul gives readers the most in-depth, comprehensive explanation of the gospel in all of Scripture, showing us what it looks like to live according to the good news. And this good news is better than we could have imagined.
We sent a film crew with pastor J.D. Greear to Rome, Italy to film The Book of Romans: Part 1 and Part 2, a series examining one of the most important books ever written on the Christian faith. In this series, J.D. helps us see just how good the gospel really is. It exceeds all our expectations.
While filming, our team asked J.D. a few questions about preparing for this series and his hopes for small groups.
J.D.: One distinctive thing I think I re-learned as I was prepping for this series is just the distinctive message of grace that the gospel offers. The power of grace to transform our lives. Especially being on location here in Rome where you’re associated with so many different symbols of religion, and all the works-righteousness that goes into religion, and people doing things to try to earn God’s favor. Paul’s message in Romans is [righteousness] is a gift. Righteousness is not a standard that we obtain to; it’s a gift that God gives us. And then in response to that, out of love, we serve God, and we serve others. The power of the gospel, it was renewed in me, rekindled in me, not only as I studied and prepared for this but as I actually taught through it as well.
J.D.: One of the things I think I’m hoping—I’ve been hoping and praying for out of this study—is that this study of the book of Romans, which is one of the deepest and richest looks at the gospel anywhere in Scripture, would have this effect of not only getting us excited about the gospel and transforming our relationships but just burning in our hearts until we have to tell others. The gospel is kind of like a spiritual tornado, it never pulls you in without also wanting to thrust you back out. And so, I think just pressing into the beauties of God’s grace, it just does something to you that changes you so that you not only treat people differently and think about yourself differently, you just find yourself having to talk to other people about the things that you’re learning.
J.D.: So, the most memorable moment, spiritually, is probably going to be down in Paul’s prison. When we’re pretty sure it is the actual cell he stood in before he was executed, and just to think about that—that was amazing. I loved filming from there. You know, always my favorite memories with this are slow walking with Will (Senior Producer at RightNow Media). Just to follow me around with a camera, and just to kind of zoom in on my feet and to make me really self-conscious about my posture, "Am I walking crooked?" So, that definitely is what I’ll take away. Will’s got a special place in my heart.
The way you define the term may be different from the way others understand it, but if we desire to be good disciples or give our lives to making disciples, we need to know what we mean when we use the term. We asked some of our plenary speakers from our 2023 RightNow Conference Grow: Making Healthy Disciples to share how they define discipleship.
“So when I define discipleship—of course, we know of the verse about it in Matthew 28 and other verses—but I define discipleship as being in a lifelong apprenticeship to Jesus Christ, in which he takes you not only from spiritual death to spiritual life but from spiritual infancy to spiritual maturity in gospel community.”
“According to Paul in Ephesians 3, discipleship is the Holy Spirit working in our inner being, Christ dwelling in our heart through faith. The idea of dwelling is this pervasive presence of Jesus not as a guest but as a host, as a resident in our heart to our every thought of our mind and desire of our heart, every day of the week and time of the week, that he is fully reigning and ruling as king. As he dwells pervasively in our hearts, we are formed into the image and likeness of Jesus. Just as he walked, we walk.”
“All too often discipleship becomes transactional. It becomes, ‘I am going to have someone who is younger than me in the Lord and we’re going to spend exactly ninety minutes together every Tuesday at this particular coffee shop, and I'm going through this Bible study.’ Well, that feels more dutiful, almost like studying a proposition instead of engaging with a person. God has called us to be a family, a community of ‘one anothers,’ so it has to be relational. There has to be compassion involved because if you're discipling and someone is probably making the same mistakes you made 10 years ago, you need grace for that. Then there has to be time to have some face-to-face, eye-to-eye, where you take off your dadgum Apple watch and make eye contact.”
“You have to remember that the ultimate goal is that, when a disciple has been discipled, they are making disciples. Are they on mission? Are they giving away what you've given to them? If you have a stagnant pool of people where you are pouring, and pouring, and pouring in, and no one is pouring out, that is not the way of Jesus. I don't know what that is, but it is not the way of Jesus. So it should be a constant sense that new believers are coming in, that baptisms are happening, that people are regularly encountering Jesus. Why? If they truly are being discipled and they are knowing Jesus more, then they are called. Their next step of obedience and discipleship is that they’re discipling somebody else.”
Though our definitions of “discipleship” may vary, the essence of all the answers focus on being attached to Jesus. A disciple is someone who knows Jesus personally, is committed to obeying him, becoming more like him in character, and equipping others to know and follow him as well. That is God’s call to all of us.
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In the book of Joshua, we get a front-row seat to the power of God as he led the nation of Israel into the Promised Land. By faith, Joshua and the Israelites overcame the challenges and obstacles they faced with the courage God supplied. And by faith, with God’s strength, we can overcome the challenges we face too.
In 2023, RightNow Media sent a film crew to Atlanta, Georgia to film The Book of Joshua with pastor Louie Giglio. The book of Joshua follows the people of God as they work to secure the land God had promised to them.
While filming, our team asked Louie a few questions about preparing for this series and his hopes for small groups.
Louie: I think one of the things that probably hit me the most preparing to teach through Joshua—and I mentioned it as we were moving through some of the early sessions—is just that Joshua was a man. And that’s important for me to remember, and for all of us to remember, we’re not looking at Bible characters. I was studying the other day about Lazarus, and we all know Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, but he was about thirty years old when Jesus did that. And somehow, we have these “older Bible characters” and we don’t realize the disciples were twenty-somethings, and Lazarus was twenty-eight or twenty-nine or thirty. And Joshua was older when he was leading the people into the Promised Land, but he was just a human being. It’s like James reminding us that Elijah was a man like us, so I think I just saw through fresh eyes, through the book of Joshua, that this isn’t some superhero that just dropped down out of the Old Testament. But this is a guy of flesh and blood just like me, a person just like you, who is putting their trust in a supernatural source to do supernatural things.
Louie: My big hope for every one of us that’s in this series together is that we will walk away with confidence. I think the enemy, if he could do one thing for all of us, it would be to chip away at our confidence in God and, ultimately, our confidence in ourselves as God is choosing to lead us. Because this is an important time to be alive on planet Earth and God has incredible assignments for every person. Not just special people like Joshua, not just for the special people like Moses, but God has an assignment for every single one of us in our lives. And he’s got an assignment for you. And so, I hope, as you’re going through Joshua with us, that you will sense, “wow, there is a calling on my life. It’s not to be a preacher or a spiritual leader or someone like Joshua—it’s a calling to this particular place and time, and these people.” And that you will sense that there’s purpose in that. That you’re not just spending time on Earth, but you have an assignment on earth to lead people into the fullness of what God has created them for. And I hope everybody sees that and feels more confident about stepping into that. Because there’s probably a river in front of you—an obstacle between you and that calling—and God wants to show you in this series how to grow in your confidence in him so that you can become everything he’s called you to be.
Louie: I think one of the moments I’m going to always remember most about shooting this series is just the incredible team and incredible shoot. RightNow Media, they’re not wanting me probably to say this, but they’re the best team and working with them is always an incredible experience for me. And just their vision of wanting to build the church and serve people and see people grow in their faith and become more committed followers of Jesus, it really is inspiring. And it doesn’t feel like we’re just here with camera and lights and background, and we’re making a theme, it feels like there’s a collective heart in this room right now to want to serve people. And I think that’s going to be for me the most memorable thing about this. I stand in front of a lot of cameras, I stand under a lot of microphones, there are lights on me a lot of the time, and you can tell a difference when it’s a job and when people really want to see hearts change. And I know I came here today because I have the honor and privilege of being on a journey with people to see their lives change, and see my life change, as we’re in this Word together, and I really believe that all the people in this room with me right now have that same heart. And that’s what makes a shoot like this enjoyable, but it also makes it satisfying and meaningful. And I’ve loved being a part of this journey together.
The message of the gospel remains constant, but culture changes constantly. To engage people in relevant ways, we must be willing to adjust our methods. We asked some of the plenary speakers from our 2023 RightNow Conference, Grow: Making Healthy Disciples, to share their ideas on engaging in discipleship in our current age.
I think it’s a good opportunity and time for the church to be “re-presented” to the world. The Bible talks about—in Ephesians 3:21—it says, “To him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus.” In other words, the church is God’s tabernacle now for Jesus’s presence. In other words, represent him. And so I think that we need to rebrand everything from how we talk about the gospel, how we talk about men, how we talk about women, how we talk about family, how we talk about relationships, how we talk about money. I think one of the mechanisms to do that is utilizing social media, by utilizing reels and YouTube videos and all these other means that are out here to really express, explain, and rebrand discipleship.
I think a huge opportunity for the church to engage in discipleship in the coming years is around community and how lonely people are, how isolated they are, how much they’re desperate for a better way to be in community, to be human, and to answer some of these nagging questions that lurk in our hearts and in our souls. There’s a sense in which, in community, we actually realize what we’re made for. I have this idea that we’re a storied community and we try to tell our stories and understand our stories in light of Jesus’s story. In community we could be shaped into the men and women that Christ can use in the world.
People are longing for connection and relationship. People are longing for life on life, sharing life together. One of the ways that can happen is one believer walking with someone else and just helping them in their walk—using the Word of God to guide them, to share life with them, to instruct them. This is one of the great ways we have to leverage our lives to invest in one another each and every day.
I think social media, digital, AI—these avenues open doors for all kinds of exposure to the gospel in people’s lives and exposure to God’s Word. How can we steward some of these things at the same time? That must be coupled with life-on-life, in the flesh together, walking through all that this life brings and applying the gospel to it. So how do we steward both of those to the full in the days ahead? I think that’s a challenge and an opportunity and a chance the church hasn’t had in history. So, let’s make sure to do them both well and wisely with the Word and the Spirit as our guide.
Technology can be an excellent means of spreading the gospel and connecting with one another. We can use digital media while knowing it does not substitute for in-person community. Discipleship happens most effectively face-to-face.
